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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:42 pm 
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i wanna know how the deer got here and where they came ...i think everyone should know this...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:15 pm 
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I believe God created them on the 5th day :D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Hey mods.. anyway we can get a "LIKE" button like on facebook? I wanna "LIKE" the comment made about God did it on the 5th day


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:12 pm 
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You can find the account of the original creation of all wild animals on Day Six near the begining of the world by God, along with all other animals, in Genisis 1:24-25. Later in time, of course, most of the animal kingdom and mankind was destroyed by flooding but pairs of animals were saved in Noah's ark, then released to repopulate the earth.

Scientists generally agree that the whitetail deer first appeared in the fossil record on planet Earth about 20 million years ago. However, the whitetail deer did not appear in North America until about 3 million years ago. Whitetail deer have not evolved very much over this vast period of time, but remain very similar, with some minor evolution for the entire period, while all sorts of other creatures have evolved in the same time span. Whitetails appear to have "escaped" evolution, which is a rather unexplained phenomenon.

More recent genetic DNA research indicates the whitetail deer "came first" with related species, such as mule deer, arising far more recently. How the whitetail got onto the land mass that is now North America is explained largely by the history of the earth's geography, including events such as the glacial ice formations long ago and the resulting migration of wildlife.

The recent genetic DNA research will likely at some future point in time produce the evidence as to what the linkage is between whitetail deer that first appeared 20 mya and whatever creature(s) were its ancestors. But for now, uncertainty exists as to precisely how the whitetail deer originally evolved and suddenly "appeared" as a unique animal in the fossil record.

The scientific account offers no description as to the complete path of evolution that resulted in the whitetail deer. But scientist don't believe the deer just "appeared" out of thin air but that it evolved from something; they just don't know for sure what and how it evolved.

The Bibilcal account, of course, describes animals that were originally created as unique, complete animals and is not dependant upon evolution for the first set of creatures. However the Biblical account does not preclude creatures evolving from the first original animals which is logically going to occur as all things attempt to adapt to their environment. Thus the possibility of later evolution from the original Biblical animals is not ruled out, except that scientists dispute the Biblical account of the age of the planet, saying insufficient time is available in the Bible record to permit evolution.

Keeping the debate over evolution and creation out of the discussion, both accounts clearly allow for the whitetail deer to have existed for a very long time in our area. In terms of modern man's habitation of this same land area, it can be justly said that the whitetail deer has "always been here" at least as far as modern man is concerned.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:29 pm 
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firecloud thankyou but heres what i dont understand......first, if they been here for 3 million years then why did it take so long for deer to appear down here because for example my grandpa says he NEVER saw any deer when he was young so does that mean it took 3 million years for the populations to get so big that they had to start moving south?? second which country did the whietails come from to get here 3 million years ago?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Pope&Young

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oops...sorry...just read they came from the ice glazers..guess i read too fast

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:09 pm 
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my bad...memories not what it used to be...it was the birds and sea creatures on Day 5, and all the walking land dwelling creatures on Day 6....and it was all good :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:22 pm 
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mikybigbuck wrote:
my bad...memories not what it used to be...it was the birds and sea creatures on Day 5, and all the walking land dwelling creatures on Day 6....and it was all good :)



yeah well im just confused as to why it took so long for down here to get alot of deer.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:24 pm 
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saddaddykiller wrote:
firecloud thankyou but heres what i dont understand......first, if they been here for 3 million years then why did it take so long for deer to appear down here because for example my grandpa says he NEVER saw any deer when he was young so does that mean it took 3 million years for the populations to get so big that they had to start moving south?? second which country did the whietails come from to get here 3 million years ago?


No problem. I will be happy to explain the small number of deer in Mississippi in your grandpa's days. While I don't know the exact age of your grandpa, by the early part of the last century, the population in Mississippi of whitetail deer was extremely small, as it was throughout most of America. There were plenty of deer 3 million years ago. There were still plenty of deer when Columbus arrived in 1492. Facts show the Native Americans did not "kill off" the deer or any other resource during their hundreds of years of land and game management before the "white man" arrived.

History records that the small number of early immigrant, non-native European settlers who lived on the North American land mass from the time of Columbus to the birth of our country (1492 to 1776) simply were not great enough to threaten the whitetail deer population.

However, things changed very shortly thereafter, as the population of non-native Americans grew and took over the lands previously managed by the Native Americans. During the 1800's, the Native Americans were steadily displaced from their lands and the Europeans spread out across the country, establishing towns and villages everywhere. Once the Native Americans lost control of the land and the white settlers moved in, the native species of many game animals, including the whitetail deer, buffalo, wild turkey, beaver, etc. were wholesale hunted until the point of virtual extinction.

While my account seems biased toward the Native Americans, history amply documents the fact that these four species I just named were never hunted to extinction during the Native American's management of the land. This only occured during the period of ownership by the European settlers. History is what it is; I am just providing you with the truth.

Let me stop right here and switch gears from the overall national historical account to Mississippi History. Had your Grandpa lived in Mississippi in the days BEFORE the very first white settlements on the gulf coast and later at Natchez and other locations (late 1600's and early 1700's), your grandpa would have seen deer all over the place and had plenty of them to hunt. He would have even had black bear to hunt and panthers. Essentially, the Native Americans only had very primitive bows, spears, etc. to hunt wild game. But when the white settlers arrived with guns, things changed quickly.

In Mississippi, large areas of land were opened up for white settlements in 1833 and the Native Americans were marched up the Trail of Tears to "IT" in Oklahoma (IT was what they called the Indian Territory.) The early white settlers who then moved into these areas after 1833 found tons of wild game, including whitetailed deer everywhere.

So the answer to your question is that the whitetail deer were in Mississippi WAY BEFORE the white settlers arrived and even before the Native Americans were here. As stated, sciences shows them here about 3 million years ago. And they remained here in great numbers until after 1833.

But, and here is what you need to understand, from 1833 to about 1933, during that 100 years, the white settlers who lived in Mississippi shot deer, bear, panthers, and other species of game to either extinction or very close to it. Science has proven that Mississippi was one of the original states where the Florida panther ranged but all these big cats were purposefully killed off by the settlers. Same thing with the black bear. And that same thing very nearly happened to the whitetail deer and wild turkey in Mississippi. You have to remember there were NO game laws, no game wardens, no deer seasons, no bag limits,....nada, nothing...to keep anyone from shooting any deer anytime they wanted to, day or night, with or without bait.

When you give people completely free opportunity to kill as many deer as often anywhere they desire to hunt them and whenever they want year round the deer will be swiftly reduced. Over that 100 year period, history shows that the whitetail deer population was reduced to perhaps as few as only a few thousand deer statewide. Thus, if your grandpa is speaking of a time around 1920 to 1930 or so in Mississippi, he is absolutely correct...there were virtually NO DEER left in our state.

The state created a game management agency in the 1930's and began to regulate and control hunting for deer and other species with game laws and enforcement of those laws. Plus the game management agency, which has now become the MDWFP, began an intensive program to repopulate the state with whitetail deer, including bringing in brood stock from other areas. Had this not been done, it is almost certain you and I would have no deer to hunt in this state today. The deer would simply have all been killed out by about 1950 or so, absent any regulation and absent efforts to boost the deer herd numbers. To their credit, the MDWFP predecessor agency also enacted programs to boost the wild turkey and other species of game that were in short supply.

Give the deer a little credit too. Whitetail deer are amazingly good at survival and reproduction. They repopulate quickly when not being slaughtered. In fact, from the few thousand deer in the state in the 1930's to about 1980 or so, in that small period of just about 50 years, the population of whitetail deer exploded to close to 2 million deer. Talk about a dramatic change, wow, that was a change! People like your grandpa rarely ever saw a deer. Not long ago, someone on this forum posted they counted 37 does in one field one afternoon.

Thus, the bottom line is that deer were here in abundance until about 1830 and were killed to near extinction by about 1930. Think about that for a minute. Deer can exist for 3 million years and man can wipe them out in just 100 years. That is sad. Fortunately, sportsmen who wanted to restore the deer herd stepped in and began conservation efforts to save the deer, turkeys, and other species. The work of sportsmen and others have made huge steps in boosting game numbers for lots of species, such as ducks and even with the once extinct black bear.

Ok, you also asked from which country the whitetail deer originally came from 3 million years ago. I am going to take the easy way out on that answer and just say that 3 million years ago there were no countries!! :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Pope&Young

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very interesting....we are very lucky they made the season and laws or we wouldnt have deer to hunt....we hunt in natchez and i have found arrowheads etc that has probably killed deer and stuff...ive always wondered 2 more things tho...why the deer stay down here with our 110 degree summers and also i hear about people saying many years agao they used to see herds of deer and people dont see herds anymore.....anyways thanks firecloud, you should be a history teacher..

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:13 pm 
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saddaddykiller wrote:
very interesting....we are very lucky they made the season and laws or we wouldnt have deer to hunt....we hunt in natchez and i have found arrowheads etc that has probably killed deer and stuff...ive always wondered 2 more things tho...why the deer stay down here with our 110 degree summers and also i hear about people saying many years agao they used to see herds of deer and people dont see herds anymore.....anyways thanks firecloud, you should be a history teacher..


I like history but its too dull for me to want to teach it. Plus they would never let me teach it the way it really was. History books are filled with biased viewpoints, generally to achieve someone's idea of a social agenda. I tell things "like it is" and call it as it really occured. Plus I don't "edit" history and leave out the parts that show the parts that some would like to keep hidden. That's know as "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Unfortunately, history is not taught with that goal in mind. Never has been and probably never will be.

I would enjoy teaching, I think. But I'd prefer to either teach the subjects of my profession or teach general business subjects like economics or possibly any of the political science courses. I'd really like to stop the career I have now and start a second career teaching and writing.

OK, here are the answers to your other questions.

First, arrowheads. Projectile points commonly called arrowheads no doubt killed deer for centuries. The Native Americans were good a making them using the "flint knapping" technique. They made a wide variety of points which were used for various types of game. Points used for deer were fairly large. If you found any of them, you would probably think they were spear points rather than arrow points.

The construction of an arrowhead did not take very long. Most people think it took "forever" to chip out an arrowhead from a stone. It didn't. A good flint knapper today can fashing a crude arrowhead in about 10 minutes and make a very nice one in 30 minutes. Since Native Americans used a lot of these points, they also made a lot of them. I have always pictured old Native American men sitting around in the coffee tepee playing checkers and flint knapping arrowheads while they awaited their partner's next move.

BTW. the arrowheads were designed with pointed barbs protruding backwards on each side so that the arrowhead would not "back out" when shot into an animal. Removal of an arrowhead of that nature generally required cutting it out, thus enhancing the killing ability of the arrowhead.

Second, deer living in 110 degree heat. I cannot say deer enjoy the excessive heat and humidity of the deep south any more than we do. However, think about this for a minute. Deer living in northern climates have to contend with snow which covers up their winter food supply and harsh winter conditions which often causes weaker and older deer to die. To survive under extremely cold weather and lots of snow, deer herd together and migrate long distances to look for any available food.

So, "moving north" is not necessarily a good answer for a whitetail as the winter conditions are far more life threatening than our summer conditions. Summer here is hot and humid but we get lots of rainfall and in most years have abundant food year round for deer to eat. Our winters are so mild they do not really threaten the whitetail's existance. Of course a deer born in Mississippi does not know about Minnesota's weather nor how to get there, so they just live where they are born all their lives, as do most land based animals in our area.

Birds and fish are not always captive to their birth area but can and often do migrate long distances. Deer and land based animals rarely migrate very far in the South although there are historical cases of animals migratig in mass, such as a squirrel migration once due to acorn crop failure. Eseentially, once born in a specific location, most such animals never actually go far from their home area.

Cod and heat are not really problems for most deer. Deer have a winter coat with hair that is solid, and which insulates their skin from the cold temperature. That coat is so efficient, snow can build up on a deer's back and not melt. The deer is protected from the cold by that super efficient winter coat.

Likewise the summer coat also provides them a way to keep cool. The hair in a summer coat has hollow, air filled shafts that allow the heat to "wick" away from the deer's skin, thus keeping it cool. The summer coat is also much thinner and light haired than the winter coat. While the summer coat looks like it would be very hot, in reality it cools the deer well enough for it to survive the summer heat.

Deer are also under no time restraints and have no time card to punch. They can find a spot in the shade where air currents are making the air flow past them, bed down, and sleep during the hottest periods of the day. They then can move around and be active in the far cooler night air. Whitetail deer survive even in harsher desert climates so our summers are not that hard on them.

Keep in mind that people today are "soft" when it comes to heat. They have mostly grown up living under an air conditioner and think it is oppressive when they have no air conditioning. I grew up in a different era. I grew up in a time when most houses were not air conditioned nor were cars. Houses were cooled by windows being open and fans running. Cars were cooled by rolling down the window.

I worked in my father's trucking business until I was 21 years old and neither the warehouse nor any of our trucks had any air conditioning. People survived those days just fine without air conditioning. As a result of that, more than half the year I never turn an air conditioner on in my house, preferring to raise the windows and sleep under fans. Humans and animals become accustomed to whatever environment they live in and learn to adapt.

Third, herds of deer. I really explained this when I mentioned the much larger numbers of deer that existed before they were almost hunted to extiction. In earlier days, when the deer population was large, deer would be seen in herds. Herding is a natural instinct for deer but is not SEEN as much today for two reasons. One is that the deer herd tends to assemble in "staging areas" in the woods at dusk then move into open fields at night to eat and lie down. If you see deer at night, it is not that uncommon to see a whole herd of deer. But they split up and go back to their individual territories before dawn. So deer do still assemble in larger herds even today; you just don't see it much because it happens at night.

The other reason is that deer have much more contact with humans today than they did where our state had far less people and was more rural in nature. This greater contact with humans, which are the only really effective predator of the deer, results in far more risk for the deer. By splitting up, rather than congregating in herds during daylight hours when humans are more active, the deer increase their odds for survival.

Deer, by nature are NOT nocturnal animals. And by nature they are herd type animals. But deer have been forced to change these two normal habits due to the presence of more human contact. If they herded up during daylight hours it would be far easier for deer to be killed by humans. Deer have figured this out and have adjusted their behavior to avoid being seen as frequently by humans. Deer are NOT stupid animals; they have a decent degree of intelligence and have shown an amazing ability to adapt their behavior to survive for the past 20 million years.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 pm 
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that explains alot //thanks firecloud

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Firecloud makes me tired...sometimes :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:48 am 
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Pre-whiteman, there were lots of deer, but not everywhere.
Allthe timber was "virgin" original growth. It was so big the canopy actually smothered out understory vegetation, thus, less browse growing, of which deer need to survive.
Most deer were found near waterway system and along edges of praries
Demise of whitetail populAtions was not native Americans, but wholesale market hunting to feed and expanding European immigrant population
This slaughter put many species in the endangered column, passenger pigeons, ducks and other game

Although species started to rebound, the great depression caused the decline again
Almost every southern state went through a major deer restocking in the early 50's
This coupled with large scale timber cutting that provided browse and cover. That coupled with laws and management, is what has brought deer populations to an all time high

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Rajun cajun wrote:
Pre-whiteman, there were lots of deer, but not everywhere.
Allthe timber was "virgin" original growth. It was so big the canopy actually smothered out understory vegetation, thus, less browse growing, of which deer need to survive.
Most deer were found near waterway system and along edges of praries
Demise of whitetail populAtions was not native Americans, but wholesale market hunting to feed and expanding European immigrant population
This slaughter put many species in the endangered column, passenger pigeons, ducks and other game

Although species started to rebound, the great depression caused the decline again
Almost every southern state went through a major deer restocking in the early 50's
This coupled with large scale timber cutting that provided browse and cover. That coupled with laws and management, is what has brought deer populations to an all time high



All of the above is very true, Rajun. Thanks for the additional info!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:59 pm 
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mikybigbuck wrote:
Firecloud makes me tired...sometimes :)


See my New Year's resolution thread! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:41 pm 
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No problem, I am a plethora of useless information!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:44 pm 
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ok....i asked my grandpa and he said that in the 1960's or something liek that.....they brought in deer from wisconsin to west feliciana parish because there were no deer at all......ive always wondered why w feliciana got such big deer , i guess they are wisconsin genetics lol ......rajun cajun did you know about this? i know that you hunt around there too

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:31 pm 
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well we will have to tell you about the birds and the bees first so you will understand.. :W: :stir: :rotflol: :rotflol: :rotflol: :rotflol: :rotflol: :rotflol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:48 pm 
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saddaddykiller wrote:
ok....i asked my grandpa and he said that in the 1960's or something liek that.....they brought in deer from wisconsin to west feliciana parish because there were no deer at all......ive always wondered why w feliciana got such big deer , i guess they are wisconsin genetics lol ......rajun cajun did you know about this? i know that you hunt around there too



Yeah. There was some good genetics already there along the river through Louisiana. Remember, all the silt brought down from flooding comes from Illinois and other midwesdtern states and is loaded with minerals and nutirents.

The wiconsin deer only helped the genetics some.

Now Louisiana got deer imported in from many states.

Southwest and west central Louisiana got a lot of deer from texas.

north, east and SE la got deer from Wisconsion and some from Virginia areas.

That is why Louisiana has the most varied rut seasons in so many parts of the states.

Along the river systems, we find the main rut last week of January and into February and March is the last rut of young does coming to age.

It is highly believed that these deer retained some of their Louisiana native stock genetics as they breed late, thus when the snow melt flooding is over in late summer, the fawns are born after high water and deer can return to their home range after the flooding.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Rajun cajun wrote:
saddaddykiller wrote:
ok....i asked my grandpa and he said that in the 1960's or something liek that.....they brought in deer from wisconsin to west feliciana parish because there were no deer at all......ive always wondered why w feliciana got such big deer , i guess they are wisconsin genetics lol ......rajun cajun did you know about this? i know that you hunt around there too



Yeah. There was some good genetics already there along the river through Louisiana. Remember, all the silt brought down from flooding comes from Illinois and other midwesdtern states and is loaded with minerals and nutirents.

The wiconsin deer only helped the genetics some.

Now Louisiana got deer imported in from many states.

Southwest and west central Louisiana got a lot of deer from texas.

north, east and SE la got deer from Wisconsion and some from Virginia areas.

That is why Louisiana has the most varied rut seasons in so many parts of the states.

Along the river systems, we find the main rut last week of January and into February and March is the last rut of young does coming to age.

It is highly believed that these deer retained some of their Louisiana native stock genetics as they breed late, thus when the snow melt flooding is over in late summer, the fawns are born after high water and deer can return to their home range after the flooding.



always wondered why theres such a varied rut season here...makes sense...thanks

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:03 am 
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There is a book by Aldo Leopold called "Game Management" that gives a very thorough account of deer populations before restocking as well as the numbers of deer released in each state as well as where those released deer were captures. It is a very interesting read and if you've ever wondered why deer in some areas of the state may carry different characteristics that others you will enjoy the book.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:06 pm 
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I'd like to read that book! Thanks for sharing the info, Andrew.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Bump for some interesting reading (again) :)

i was googleing something about deer and this popped up in the result list :D


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:14 am 
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thanks GTK this is always a good read.... maybe you could sticky it

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